Okay, European flist...

[averygoodun42]

What are your opinions on France's burqa ban? How about on Martha Nussbaum's recent opinion pieces?

Comments will be screened unless you request otherwise.

For my part, I think Nussbaum is using some faulty premises, weak arguments ("Isn’t our poetic tradition full of the trope that eyes are the windows of the soul?" Seriously?!?), and is coming from a decidedly American viewpoint. France is not the US, and, although I have not read up on it, I assume that France's Constitution is different, just as their form of government and their culture is different. And the threats to the nation are different, as well. Each democracy is employed differently due to necessity.

I have mixed feelings about the actual banning of the burqa in terms of governmental power and ethnic cleansing/conforming, but from a feminist point of view, I can only see it as a good thing. More than a couple commenters have pointed out that nowhere in the Koran does it say that the face needs to be covered. Modest dress for both men and women is what is called for. The burqa is one culture's version of what modest is... for women. Note that men from that culture do not also wear burqas, however.

I am not anti-Islam. I do not equate Muslims with terrorists; in the same way I do not equate Christians with Fundy-whackjobs (or even all Fundies with the Fundy-whackjobs). However, the implementation of Fundy Islam, in the same way as Fundy X-tianity and Fundy Judaism, is usually very misogynistic and places women in confined (and often lesser) roles. Why shouldn't a government that might actually be concerned about equality between the sexes ban a visible, public symbol of sexism and misogyny? How can they protect everyone when they allow a percentage to remain invisible?

Yes, the reasons behind the ban are obviously anti-Muslim and xenophobic. I get that. I don't like that. But I also get that France has its own culture, mores and risk factors, and the burqa is threatening all of them.

Now, if they were banning headscarves in all public spaces... that would be a different case altogether, and one I might actually get pissed off about.

Comments

[mundungus42.livejournal.com]

I've been following this story, also with mixed feelings. I think that not only is it not the government's place to regulate something as personal as clothing, France's ban also smacks of religious persecution, especially given how poorly Muslims are integrated into French society. There's a pretty good parallel between blacks in the south and Muslims in France. They're there, but you mostly see them doing low-paid work. That said, I'm incredibly proud of France for targeting institutional misogyny, including that which has been traditionally defended by religion. I just wish they'd chosen to do it in a way that will have real impact.

As for the Nussbaum article, she goes way too far in equating face veils to wearing safety equipment or bundling up in the winter, because those things serve an important purpose beyond obscuring one's physical appearance and wearing the veil does not. Also like you, I apply an equality standard and disapprove of veiling (including wearing headscarves for religious reasons) based on the fact that men are not expected to do so as well.

I would never harass a woman in a head scarf because there are gazillions of reasons that a woman would wear one that have nothing to do with religion, but nor nor would I sit silent listening to some sanctimonious person claim that being fully veiled/wearing a headscarf gives women undreamed of freedom from society's unfair standards of female beauty. Talk about irony.

PS Screen or unscreen as you see fit.

[averygoodun.livejournal.com]

The only reason banning of headscarves would annoy me is because there is precedence for head covering in other religions, and even within Islam, for men as well. If nuns want to wear a full habit, let them.

To be fair, I can see the burqa and niqab serving important safety purposes in the mideast. If one is a nomad. However, take the person away from a nomadic life in blistering, sandy climes, and the needs are removed and only tradition remains. And France is well within their rights to ask immigrants to embrace French traditions rather than theirs since the immigrants chose to emigrate to France.

[alienor77310.livejournal.com]

*French point of view*
1-This law is all foolish arm-waving by a beleagered party.

2-This law is probably unnecessary, as I believe there is already a law forbidding to hide one's face/prevent recognition. Which brings us back to point One.

3-French authorities are equal-opportunity religion-bashers. Recently, they shut down a catholic-fundy high-school because of the poor quality of teaching (including the fact that the students weren't asked to do any critical thinking in History lessons).

4-France's attitude to immigration has always been assimilation. Resistance by burqa/hijab is futile, you will be assimilated. When in Paris, do as Parisiennes do. And that's what most second and third generation north-African women do. Heck, that's what their mothers did too. Bad social and city planning caused the creation of foreign communities, youths who'd rather support the Algerian soccer team than the French, ethnic gangs. All efforts are now in view of bringing them into the fold.

[averygoodun.livejournal.com]

May I unscreen this? It's really illuminating.

[bonsaibetz.livejournal.com]

Okay, I will give my opinion and you can take it as just that. My opinion. You may repost snippets at will. Your choice. First off, let me say I reside in the U.S., so this is my American POV.

The Europeans talk about the denigration of women. I wonder, in their enlightened societies at the BDSM clubs, if a woman willing puts on a dog collar, will European government ban that? No, because the woman has the freedom to choose to put on the collar. Others may view it as subjugation. But it is the woman's choice is she chooses. Who is the government to say that the woman is not willingly putting on a burqua or a head scarf?

Second, for the first time in how many centuries, Europe is a place for people to immigrate to, not emigrate from. America has dealt with immigrants coming to our shores bringing strange cultures and customs for 400 years. This is the first time in how many centuries Europe has not been a place to flee because of war, famine, poverty, maniacal dictators/monarchs, class systems and disease? America has been dealing with immigrants for 400 years. Once Europe gets the hang of assimilation, then maybe attitudes and claims of preserving their culture will begin to change. I mean, do the English still have the same culture from before William the Conqueror came to England in 1066? No, culture is a dynamic entity.

I originally had a much longer post, but LJ said that 7,300 characters was too long and I had to edit it down. So I'll keep this much shorter.

[averygoodun.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your very American opinion.

Your bringing up the history of America's dealings with immigration gives me hope. We are the reigning experts of assimilation, aren't we?

[alienor77310.livejournal.com]

Yes, you can unscreen the other comment.

[averygoodun.livejournal.com]

Thank you!